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Jason Hall: Hey everybody. Welcome back to Investing Unscripted, where we ask and answer the hard questions about investing. I'm Jason Hall joined as usual by my good friend. The voice of the people, Jeff Santoro. Hey Jeff. Hey, how are you? I'm good, man. Fresh back from, uh, from a long vacation overseas. Yeah. I don't think anything's really changed 

Jeff Santoro: while you were gone though, right?

Yeah, nothing is different than when I got on a plane at 8 p. m. on Tuesday, November 5th, nothing was different from then to now. Yeah, we were on a little vacation, got back Sunday afternoon, so happy to be back at the podcast here. Yeah, 

Jason Hall: it's good to have you back. And I want to say, this is another one of those special podcasts.

It's good for our 

Jeff Santoro: listeners, 

Jason Hall: but great 

Jeff Santoro: for you, right? Yes, good for the listeners because we have a fantastic guest [00:02:00] and great for me because that means you talk less So without any further ado we will introduce our our guest today Joel from the How to Money podcast and before Before you get a chance to talk, I just have to say this on, on the podcast for everyone to hear, this is a fun full circle moment for me because your podcast was one of the first I found when I became super, I want to say obsessed with investing in personal finance things back in early 2020 and it was sort of like.

Once we started the podcast, it was one of the ones I wanted to grow up to be. So it's really great to have you here and welcome. 

Joel Larsgaard: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for, um, the kind words and I'm glad to, glad to be here with you guys today. 

Jason Hall: So Joel, um, now I know who to blame. 

Joel Larsgaard: This is why your podcast sucks, because you tried to imitate something terrible.

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Jeff Santoro: The podcast sucks because of Jason. Alright, uh, moving on. . We, one of the things we, we, we usually do to start off when we have a guest is to kind of have them give their backstory. But before we do that one of my favorite things about, you know, Your podcast is how you always start off [00:03:00] asking your guests what their craft beer equivalent is, right?

What's the thing they splurge on even while they're being financially savvy? So I want to flip it. I want to flip your your opening thing and invert it and I want to know what's the dumb thing you used to spend your money on before you got wise and figured out all the personal finance thing? 

Joel Larsgaard: That is a really good question.

And I, for me, it was less of like an individual item that I spent too much money on. And it was just, An emphasis on frugality that was overdone. And so I think some people and I was one of those people for a long time where personal finance was frugality. It was like, how can I, yeah, yeah. And it was like, how can I save money in this way and that way?

And so that's, I'm going to frugal my way to being financially independent or something like that. And I, and. You pretty quickly realize it took me maybe longer than the average bear, but you pretty, you realize at some point, um, hopefully that it's pretty darn hard to do that and that there are other levels [00:04:00] levers that you have to pull.

So for me, I think my big miss, like how I was like super myopic. And I thought that if I just became more frugal in more aspects of my life, but that's what was going to lead me to the promised land of the place I wanted to be when it came to having enough money and, you know, knowing where everything was going.

And I just. I was too intent on that. And I was missing some of the other more important factors that that personal finance has to offer. 

Jeff Santoro: Yeah. I, uh, I was a little bit like that too. And. It probably took me longer to kind of relax about it too. And I think the thing that did it for me was as you get older and you talk, you start meeting more people at work and things, and you start to talk to people who are older than you, you start to hear those stories about the guy who, or the gal who saved, saved a lot of money, retired.

To do all this traveling and then died a week later, it never got to do any of it. And, you know, so it's that whole balance between saving for the future, but also enjoying your life and going out and doing things you enjoy and things like that. So that makes sense to me, to 

Joel Larsgaard: me, those are the worst [00:05:00] headlines is the janitor that died with 8 million in assets or something like that.

And you're like, you, I hope you enjoyed your job. And I, I, I'm glad that you were. A good investor, but did you actually get to enjoy the fruits of your labors too? And I think that balance, it's really hard. Like it's so, um, it doesn't make the headlines because it's not the fire movement. It's not someone retiring at 32.

Uh, but it, I think that finding that balance is something that we strive to talk about regularly on the show. And it's something that I strive for in, in my own life. it's just, yeah, it's, it's not going to be an easy sell, I think for a lot of people, but it's really important. It's what most people want out of life.

And so, they don't necessarily want to die with millions in the bank. They want to set themselves up for success right now in, in their everyday lives, but they also want to be planning for future success and creating future wealth for themselves at the same time. 

Jeff Santoro: Yeah, for sure. All right. So how about we dive into that usual first question?

I came across your podcast when I just started to search for [00:06:00] investing podcasts and personal finance podcasts. And I know that's not where you started. So why don't you give us a little bit about. Your background, like it sounds like you were always interested in the frugality aspect of personal finance, but how did you get to starting the podcast with Matt and getting to where you are now?

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. So like my story with money really starts in childhood. And so I'll just quickly relate that my, my parents were not great with money. They argued about money a lot and my parents are great people. They're actually like my heroes in so many ways, but so bad with money. And that created a lot of normal.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeff Santoro: Right. 

Joel Larsgaard: Exactly. So they argued about it and I remember all those arguments. They filed for bankruptcy when I was 12 and our car got repossessed and I just, that stuck like left an indelible mark on me. And so I was always, that's, I think where that hyper frugality to me was like, I don't ever want money to be this struggle.

And I guess the only way to do that is to [00:07:00] not buy a fancy new car or something like that, that might get repossessed that I might not be able to pay for. So I'm going to pay for all my cars in cash, like that kind of thing. And I still pay for all my cars in cash. I, I, I still think that's a really good idea.

Although I have moderated on other elements, but so that was like really this massive thing that ingrained into me. I have to be good with money so that I don't harm my relationships. And so they don't harm my future and create all this uncertainty in my life. And I had the good fortune of, uh, at the age of 22, I got this job.

I loved to talk radio, ended up working in talk radio for many, many years. For a guy named Clark Howard, and he is was a nationally syndicated personal finance talk show host and working for him was like this crash course, uh, this mentorship of sorts in personal finance and investing. And so that to me was like, I opened my eyes to all of the good things you can do with money and not just the ways that you need to like.

Be incredibly frugal and hoard money. But the real, I think all the benefits of money can provide in the ways that you can [00:08:00] use money in, in a positive way. 

Jeff Santoro: Yeah. I'm, I'm glad you mentioned the radio show. Cause I knew that I remember listening to you on a podcast years ago and you mentioning that. So I knew that was in your background.

He talked a little bit about it, but I'm curious were there specific things that working there and, and working with him, that that you can look to to be like, Oh, this is why I do that thing. Can you draw on some specific examples of where that influenced the way you think about money and investing?

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. I mean, I, when I first started working there, I didn't really know what a 401k was. I was 22. I was fresh out of college. I had like zero financial education. I didn't know what a Roth IRA was. I couldn't tell you what a. What the contributions limit were. I, there were things I, I was trying to pay off my student loans as quickly as possible.

And then I realized after a little while of working for Clark, wait a second, I was one of those fortunate people who had a sub 2% interest rate on his student loans. And then I was like, does that really make sense? Sense for me to keep trying to get those, get rid of those as quickly as possible.

Are there other things I can and should be doing with this money? There were a million things I learned working for Clark and then just that [00:09:00] passion developed because you asked about the podcast and that passion really turned in Or just that interest turned into a passion. And so at some point my, my buddy, Matt, my best buddy, Matt and I were like, what do we do when we, when we get together, we drink a beer and we talk about money.

Um, it's something that we were both really interested in and passionate about. Matt was a small business owner, me working for Clark in, in the money media space. We're like, let's try to create a podcast. Let's try to do something the two of us. And it's to get to do that with your best friend is pretty fantastic. Pretty fun. It makes the, the work, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know.

It makes it feel like less of a lift, right? To get to do the thing you're like, Oh, I'm going to show up and hang out and talk about a subject I care about with my best buddy, instead of showing up solo to the microphone or something like that. And just, um, you're just more likely to be prepared and you're, you enjoy it.

It's just more enjoyable. So getting through that with him, I guess we've been doing it for almost seven years now. 

Jason Hall: Yeah. No, that's, that's awesome. Absolutely. Absolutely. Spot on. [00:10:00] Jeff and I our listeners know, but just for your background, we, we met basically during the pandemic on social media and started interacting a little bit.

And um, then we ended up having a couple of phone calls and started to establish that relationship and it kind of came to the same thing. It was, you know, We were really aligned on a lot of things. It was something that we both really enjoyed talking about. And a lot of other people in our lives don't necessarily enjoy having these conversations.

So, you know, it was nice kind of having, you know, being able to pull the oars in the same direction. I want to circle back to something you said, this is where I'm going to take the show on a tangent. Jeff, you're welcome. But it gets back to thinking about money. One of the. As you were, as you were talking about your, your history with your family with money and where those early seeds about frugality were planted kind of got me thinking about some of my own experiences and mistakes and let's list them all right now.

Oh, man, we don't, we don't have that much time. We can, 

Jeff Santoro: we can have you back on next week. 

Jason Hall: Okay. If anyone wants to, they 

Jeff Santoro: can go listen to just about [00:11:00] any episode. Let's talk about it. 

Jason Hall: So, but, but it's me, it feels like your early relationship with money was really punitive, right? And you, it was a lot of negative associations with money that carried over into your early adulthood, the way you thought about money and treated it.

Yeah. And at some point you made that transition of really, and it sounds like you know, With Clark Howard and being around that group of people that view money as a tool and how you can use it to leverage your life in positive ways, that was a hard lesson for me to learn to really separate the emotions for money and thinking about money as a tool that I can use in some way, hopefully for good in the world.

I'm curious. What do you remember specific things that happened that really opened your eyes about? Okay, let's this is a tool that I can use to make my life better now Not just being so focused on how it can keep your life from being bad. 

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. Yeah, I think I was that's good I was built up. I had this scarcity mindset, right?

and so it was kind of like I have to do [00:12:00] everything I can to maximize every dollar and I have to I have to gain future security as quickly as possible. And part of my thing wasn't even, I have to make as much money as possible. I was working in talk radio. Like you don't make a lot of money working in talk radio.

I was like, I want to do work that I enjoy. Cause that was another thing that my dad struggled with was that he, he wasn't doing enjoyable work. He wasn't making much money, but he wasn't, it wasn't like he loved his job either. And so I was like, I'm willing to not make tons of money as long as I get to enjoy what I do every day.

But yeah, when it comes to like, Getting over that hump, I think, and seeing the good that money can do. Like you ha it takes time to find that balance. At least it did for me. I think marriage was a big part of that. My wife kind of like pushing me to say, Hey, this is great. Future financial security is a wonderful thing, but how are we going to, what do our lives look like now?

And you can't just think about how glorious your 60 year old or 65 year old self can be. That future is going to be, you have to incorporate some of those things into the here and now. So that was, I think one thing was really my wife's influence. [00:13:00] And then I think my buddy Wes Moss has this study about the happiest retirees.

And he talks about the people who are happiest in retirement or the people who are doing some of those things along the way that they enjoyed the most. Like they had more, I think he calls them core pursuits. That they were fond of. So whether that is, Hey, I'm into long distance running or I'm into disc golf, whatever that is, like enjoying those, those things in the here and now.

And so that was another thing for me was like, well, actually my hobbies aren't terribly expensive, but I need time to do those things. And sometimes having that time comes with saying no to money, uh, to earning more money. So all those things. And then I think the other thing I remember having this conversation with this guy, Ken Honda, who's a personal finance professional.

Uh, writer from Japan and my wife and I were set to do a renovation on our house and it was really expensive. It was like the biggest check I'd ever written in my life. And I remember bike and I'm not prone to anxiety, but being so anxious writing that check and kind of freaking out after it was done.

I like to think of myself [00:14:00] as like a crazy person. A cool calm collected fella getting to that table. I was like, this is great. Um, this, this renovation is going to be awesome. And I could foresee the light at the end of the tunnel, how great the house was going to be at the end, at, you know, at the end of six months, but writing the check totally undid me.

And I remember Ken Honda saying that to be thankful for the money that comes in and comes out of your life. And I remember thinking I can be I can be anxious and I can be nervous and I can let this renovation be this pile of nerves built up in my, in my body, freaking me out every step along the way, or, or I can say, man, really thankful.

I have the money to write this check to do this thing that we have set as a priority in our lives. And so it was kind of like a mental reframe, a mental shift. And I think. Yeah. For me that helped and I have to go back to that all the time because I get, I become a nervous Nelly at times still when it comes to money and spending money and my wife sometimes has to prod me in that.

Um, but, but that's that's, I think that's one of those like real moments that stood out to me where I began to view some of my spending differently. If it's intentional and thoughtful and I [00:15:00] have the money, quit freaking out about it. 

Jeff Santoro: You hit on something in that answer, Joel, that I wanted to circle back to because it's something that I think about when.

In my day job, I work in a school district and I talk to young, younger teachers who are at the beginning of their journeys, 21, 22 years old, just out of college. And I, if, if it comes up that I know anything about, Invite investing or retirement accounts and things like that. Sometimes I'll have those conversations and the thing that I'm never sure how to approach.

And I'm, I'm curious if you've talked about this either on the podcast or if people have reached out to you. I, the thing that I struggled with when I was younger was feeling like I'm at the beginning of my career. I don't have a lot of money and therefore I can't invest it because I need it to like just get by.

And Jason actually helped me think through this. Oh, I wish that he had said that someone had said this to me when I was that age, you know, the whole idea of pay yourself first. Like if I had just built the habit when I was 17 and had a summer job of like 10% of my income going straight to an S&P 500 index fund I probably [00:16:00] just would have grown up with that being normal. But- 

Joel Larsgaard: yes 

Jeff Santoro: stepping into it, you know, I was excited to have a paycheck for the first time, like a real paycheck, like a grown up one. And then I was like, but I got to pay my rent and I have to make sure that I can, you know, pay for, do my car payments and things like that.

So for when you're, Talking about money with people who are at the beginning of their career, or maybe even just later in the career, just don't make a lot of it. How do you think about encouraging people to get into saving and investing when they just don't have a ton to get by on? 

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. And I can sympathize.

I found myself in that position in those early years. My, my first radio jobs were Part time. And even when I started work for Clark, a nationally syndicated radio show, you would think now I'm in the big time. I'm producer for a nationally syndicated radio show. And I was part time and I was pressure washing houses on the side.

And so I was, I was certainly not uh, raking it in. But I found that. And not on every salary, but on most salaries, there are ways to invest a small amount. And you're right. It's like kickstarting a [00:17:00] habit that will continue for decades to come. Even if it's just a few percentage points of your paycheck, putting that into your 401k, getting the match, getting the doubling, essentially, if you have that.

Available to you. It's it kickstarts a litany of other great habits in your life, but that one habit in and of itself, um, can and will pay massive dividends down the road. And it's one of those things too, where I think it's tough to see. The progress in those first, you don't see any progress in months, basically.

Right. In the first few years, you see very little too. And it's only looking back like decades down the road. And so I've been an investor now for almost 20 years. And now, now I'm at the point where like, I see market moves and I'm like, Oh my gosh, like the kind of, the numbers get big, right? It's crazy.

You don't, you heard people say that 20 years ago, or I heard people say that 20 years ago. And I was like, Decades down the road, your money's going to work harder for you than you do for it. And I was [00:18:00] like, I guess I just have to trust that that's true. And, and it is true. It, it, you will get to that point, but it's a slow and steady process.

But you got to begin. And, and I think some people discount the value of investing 20 bucks. That's why I hate, like, I hate lottery tickets. they're about to, you know ramp up the price of lottery tickets from two bucks to five bucks. And I think people think of it as this nihilistic thing. Like I'll never be able to build wealth.

So I might as well just go for the jackpot. Yeah. I don't think that's true. I think that five bucks matters when you're investing. If you're doing five bucks a week into lottery tickets, that's just one lottery ticket a week. Like some people are doing a lot more than that. 

Jason Hall: Right. 

Joel Larsgaard: But if you're putting that money into lottery tickets, instead of into the market, you're screwing up. Because that will, yeah, it's not going to have some sort of instant impact, but it will over time have a, have a meaningful one.

Jason Hall: Yeah, that's, um, round numbers here over 40 years. That's about 65, 000. If it compounds at the market's annualized rate. Yeah. Yeah. That's not nothing. Yeah. I just did that in my head too. I'm pretty impressed with myself. 

Jeff Santoro: So [00:19:00] for all our listeners, if the math is wrong, please reach out to us and tell, tell Jason, he, his head math is bad.

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Jason Hall: so a couple of things you said [00:21:00] there, uh, Joel, that really, I think resonated with me going back to writing that, that check for the, for the renovation you were talking about, it got me thinking about, you know, we just did a patio here and I was thinking about writing that, the check for the patio, um, smaller than a renovation, but still hard to write that check.

But I was thinking, the thing I was thinking was it's really hard to write that check, but at the same time, if you're financing that. It's so much easier just to sign for that loan, right? Cause you're thinking about that monthly payment and that number, it just feels so much smaller, even though it's really a bigger number, right?

When you, when you finance it. And it got me thinking about the tension between, you started talking about, do it, the things that we can do automatically, like the 401k contribution, the small, the percentages that seem small, that can be big and you can find the money. Yes, there are people in poverty, right?

Those re there are people that face financial realities that a lot of us don't, right. And we're not making light of that, but speaking [00:22:00] to the reality for most people that are, are going to be our audience, you have flex, you have some ability to make things happen automatic for money that you don't really need that can disappear and it won't change your life at all.

That is money for future you, right? And it got me thinking about like the tension between the things that you have to be mindful about. Versus the things that you want to automate in your life. And I'm curious how you, how you approach that. 

Joel Larsgaard: So, yeah, I just want to speak to one thing. You, I think compounding works in, can work in either direction.

Right. And what you're talking about essentially is small bits in the positive direction goes a long way and, and small bits into like the average person has something like, uh, $6,000 worth of credit card debt, recurring credit card debt that they don't pay off, or you're talking about being okay. Like we just live in this culture now that's, that's become accustomed to Being payment buyers on everything from cars to renovations.

Like we are, it's all about, I mean, buy now pay later. That's where that phenomenon comes from. People [00:23:00] are, are willing to say I don't know, I guess I'll put, I'll put my blue jeans on a four month payment plan. And. It's just, it's amazing how you have to be as the, the way we do do money in, in our predominant culture gets worse and worse and worse.

You look even more like a salmon swimming upstream doing just kind of like normal, basic stuff that wasn't considered ridiculous or like paying cash for a car or something. It's like, Who does that anymore? Like, why would you even suggest that someone does that? Because there are loans for that. And, and so why wouldn't I just go and get the best loan possible and pay it off over six or seven years?

It's because you get into that mindset and you buy something more than you fancier than you otherwise would. You instead of sticking to stuff that's actually in your means, you buy more clothing or plane tickets or something like that than you otherwise could afford. And you forget about. When you look at what's happening with cars too, it's, it's incredible.

The people that put the, buy a car on with an 84 month term, [00:24:00] and then, and then they want to upgrade the car 60 months after they bought it. And they roll the rest of the loan into the new, into the new car loan. And so they're massively upside down in the next car that they get. And we've just said that that's normal.

And I just don't think that's normal. And I think if we just combat kind of what we've considered to be normal, and we talk about what actually is normal, um, and maybe we push even a little more into that counter culturally abnormal way of living life, like people will be financially healthy in a much more significant way, but we've all bought into this, this way of living that, that completely screws up your ability to reach financial independence.

Jason Hall: One of the things that's crept along that reminds me of, and then I've got an actual question after we finished commiserating over these, these real financial issues. It got me to thinking back when I was in my mid twenties and I bought the first car that I ever bought on my own used car. And it was a five year loan was the only way I was going to be able to buy the car.

And they, the dealer, they tried to upsell me to a different car and he said, well, I can get you the same payment. Okay. Okay. [00:25:00] And they're going to go from the 60 month loan to a 72 month loan. Uh huh. Yeah. Right. Keep me the same payment. And I was thinking six years for a car. And now, yeah, we're talking seven year car loans. Now cars are more reliable and they do stay on the road longer and all that, but still it just, it blows my mind that this continues to be more, it's not just normal, it's more normal, more and more normal. 

Jeff Santoro: the other piece of it too, is what I've noticed in just talking to like friends and, and other people who do these things, like use a lot of debt to finance their life.

It, what I've noticed is it's typically the people who already have debt. Who just try to go get more debt? you know and i'm gonna defend myself a little bit here because I try to I i'm not it wasn't until recently that I really kind of understood how you can actually Save enough money to pay for a car like that seemed like it's absurd to me when I was in my 20s Like how [00:26:00] will I ever have forty thousand dollars in cash or thirty whatever it is if I want to buy a new nice car, right?

And I think that's a mindset for younger people, like when you're only making, whatever, 40,000 a year, the idea of saving even 20,000 to get like a used car is, is like mind blowing. So like, so I actually don't think in some instances using debt to get a car loan or even doing like a big renovation is the worst thing in the world.

But I, but I think most people don't actually do the math on how much more they're paying, right. And they think to themselves especially when interest rates were low Oh, this loan's only 3. 99%. Like, that's not a lot of money. They don't take the time to take the price of the car and multiply it by the interest rate to figure out like how much it actually is it out.

Yeah. Look at the document 

Jason Hall: that they're legally required to give you. That gives you the number. 

Joel Larsgaard: Right. And I'm not, I'm not an anti debt Crusader. Like I have. A mortgage on my primary residence. I have mortgages on my rental properties. And I think some [00:27:00] people there, there's the kind of mindset that all debt is bad.

And I think some, some debt, some smart forms of debt, there aren't like a ton of them, but there are some that can help act as jet fuel for your ability to, to pay your bills. to build your financial future. I was talking about that student loan debt that I was like, you know, focused on pretty intently early on in my wealth building journey.

And if I had focused instead on putting that money in my Roth IRA, my net worth would be higher today than it would then focusing on paying that, that student loan, low interest rate, student loan debt off. So you have to be, you have to be thoughtful about it. And I don't think it's, it's necessarily just a math thing, although you do want to, to look at the math as well.

It's partly psychological, but yeah, if there are some people who will lead you to believe that paying off your debt is the smartest thing to do until you've paid off all your debt and until you can buy a house in cash kind of thing, then you know, you, you shouldn't be investing or something like that.

And that's going to delay your investing journey and that's going to delay your ability to build wealth too. 

Jason Hall: So a lot, a lot of these things that we're talking [00:28:00] about are, you know, Are lessons that you can learn from other people. But I'm a firm believer that the reality, because we're humans and humans are stubborn and kind of dumb in a lot of ways, a lot of times are lessons.

You can really only kind of learn on your own, making the mistake or facing the reality and, and figuring it out. So I'm curious, thinking about lessons that you've dealt with in your own life. Are there things that you think generally you're probably going to have to make the mistake to learn? 

Joel Larsgaard: I yeah, I do think that you're right I think you can often and most of the time learn from what others are teaching you or from maybe the bad beats that others have suffered like I don't think like I heard somebody the other day say that well Gen Z is going to have to learn investing mistakes the yolo style of investing They're gonna have to learn it through like trial and error and getting burned.

I don't think they have to Like I don't think you have to invest haphazardly and then say, Oh, now I learned my lesson. I think you can learn your lesson before you do those things. And that's my goal is to hopefully help people on the front end. [00:29:00] But I do think that there are other things that, especially when it comes to kind of more innate personality.

Uh, realities that you're going to have a more difficult time. You probably are going to need some trial and error. I think there really are. Some people are, whether it's nature or nurture, whether it's just ingrained from the womb or whether it is from like those early childhood experiences, you are going to probably be more in the frugal camp or more in the spendthrift cat camp, and I think you're going to, I actually think of myself as a spender who had to moderate, right?

And it took. And it's harder for me maybe than the person who's like, natural inclination is to frugality. So I was a spender and then I went through all those things and I was like, I have to force myself to be this thing that I don't necessarily want to be. But I think that's probably the, the most difficult thing for people is, and the thing that they're going to have to combat the most.

Um, with the most fervor is those national inclinations that they have that might go [00:30:00] against the best interests of their, their money and building wealth. 

Jeff Santoro: Yeah. The, uh, knowing thyself, I think is, is a huge, is a huge piece of that. It's funny. Like the, the thing that I think about. I, I don't know, part of me thinks you do have to, to learn some of these lessons.

Like there's a bunch of things in my past where I was very close to learning a very bad lesson. Like I, I flew a little too close to the sun a couple of times when I was younger and. Got bailed out because I, because I'm, I'm, I grew up, I have a privileged background, like not super wealth in my family, but I always knew I kind of had a little bit of a backstop if I got into any real trouble and during the early two thousands, like real estate bubble, when you could like.

You know, basically get any mortgage you wanted by just showing you how to pulse. I very quickly bought my first house and then realized not too long after that, getting the mortgage payment covered in the summers when I wasn't getting a paycheck, cause I was a teacher was kind of rough [00:31:00] and I was able to borrow a little bit of money to kind of bridge that gap.

And but that, like for me, that's something that has always stuck. And I, I don't know that. I would have completely learned that lesson. I, I knew that lesson, right? Like I kind of, I, I did know that I knew I shouldn't have gotten a mortgage. That was beyond what I could afford. I, and I don't want to say I was a victim, but when you're 25 and, or 23 and someone's like, you can't afford this.

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. 

Jeff Santoro: Here's an official paper that says you can. You're like, Oh, All right. I guess I can afford that. 

Joel Larsgaard: I think that's a really important point. I think that is something that happens to a lot of people. And so I'm not saying even that it's easy, right. To avoid all those things. And I think a lot of people do fall victim because financial literacy in this country is abysmal and almost fortunately we're getting more and more, you know, high school, high schools in states around the country.

Our kids are having to, to take a personal finance course in high school in order to graduate, how helpful is that going to be? That remains to be seen. But I, I think you're, you're spot on that. A lot of people do end up learning through [00:32:00] difficult circumstances, um, or through, you know, encountering it themselves because nobody taught them differently.

I even go back, I was so fortunate to get to work for someone who taught me practically about money because it was my job. I was like literally producing a financial advice radio show, but if I had just been let out into the world based on what my parents said, I probably would have been frugal, but man, I wouldn't have known anything else about money or proactively building wealth.

Nothing. I'm, I'm constantly amazed when I meet 24, 25 year olds who are, uh, On the right path when it comes to their money. And I'm like, how did, how at this young of an age, are you there already? I, it, it boggles my mind because the only way I was there is because my day job allowed me to get there. So, I think that that's part of my passion is, and I want to help people avoid some, some Of the mistakes that are common out there when it comes to how people handle their money.

But I think you're right. Most people are going to make at least some mistakes and hopefully they can correct, you know, before it gets too bad or before they dig themselves in too big of a hole. [00:33:00] But most people don't have. Parents or really any outside influence who are kind of shepherding them in the right way.

Because most of their parents don't know any better either. 

Jeff Santoro: Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because for me, like I have, I have two parents who had pensions. So they, and good, like rock solid pensions. So I don't think it was ever on their radar to like invest beyond that because they're, you know, they both had them.

And I think some of their, you know, some of my grandparents did too, cause that was very common. Generations ago and is less so now. So, all right. So I want to go in a slightly different direction because you know, we do talk a decent amount about personal finance on our podcast, but we talk more about investing in stocks and things like that.

So I know you guys are big proponents of, for most people, just indexing into, into an S and P 500 index fund or ETF like VOO and saying that that's appropriate for most people. And Jason and I feel the same way. Our listeners. Mostly are here because they want to do [00:34:00] a little bit more with that in individual stocks.

And I think our point of view, and I'm curious what your thoughts on our, we talk a lot about, we, we love it. Like it's one of our favorite things. So like, we understand why people want to do that, but you have to go into that willing to do the work and spending the time and all that kind of stuff. So I'm curious you personally, do you invest in any, in anything other than index funds?

Like, do you dabble there at all? I'm just curious, like where, where you land on that for yourself and, and how you think about it for other people. 

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah, I do. I do a small amount of single stock investing. I own a small amount of Bitcoin. And 

Jeff Santoro: right now that's looking really good. 

Joel Larsgaard: It's looking really good right now, but the truth is I don't own enough for it to make a massive difference in my bottom line.

If for me, it's more of- 

Jason Hall: Well, that's a good way to manage the downside risk too, right? You get to scratch an itch, but also not risk your family's future. 

Joel Larsgaard: Yes. And so that's, that's really what I try to eat my own cooking on this when it [00:35:00] comes to how I think and talk about investing in individual stocks or investing in alternative assets, I guess, um, in, in some ways, like I, most of my exposure, investing exposure is to real estate, right?

So I own a number of rental properties. I, um, have some money in some real estate syndication deals. So that, that is like the, if you're looking at like How much exposure I have to real estate versus the stock market. It's, it's vastly, vastly more exposure to real estate, but it's something that one, when I bought it was a different time.

And so, I think you need to take the market conditions into account and I try to warn people against. listening to real estate influencers who want to make it sound like it's super easy and they're going to make big bucks. And when it comes to like single stocks and alternative investments, I do think it's okay to put a portion of your portfolio there.

Especially if you are the kind of person who's willing to do the work and. Yeah. And not just be like, I watch Netflix, maybe I should invest in it. You know, like you, you should do more due diligence beyond [00:36:00] just that, that sort of knee jerk assumption. And I'm okay with it, but keeping it to, I think 5% of your overall portfolio makes sense.

And I like the idea of having it with a different brokerage firm than where you have your 401k, your IRA, stuff like that. So it's almost like siloed off. And you go specifically to that other place to check your individual stock holdings. And also having a more long term mindset when it comes to that sort of investing too.

I think sometimes when you talk about individual stock investing, we're talking about day trading. That's at least what a lot of people assume. Yeah. And I think you can invest in individual stocks and potentially outperform if you're thinking about investing for the long term. That's from a tax perspective, but also from just a smart investor standpoint, because if you truly believe in Starbucks.

They've had a really tough time recently and their stock has shown it. But does that mean that, that Starbucks isn't going to be around for the long haul? I don't, I mean, I don't know. I, I don't drink Starbucks, but I know a lot of people do. So, I think you have to have that long term mindset, even if you're investing in [00:37:00] individual, individual stocks and you have to be able to dedicate the time.

If you've got the interest and you've got, and you're doing the right thing with the vast majority of your investment dollars, go for it. Yeah. I think one of the things people forget about. 

Jason Hall: Trading stocks is you are literally going up against professionals and just like any endeavor, I promise you that you're probably going to lose to a professional.

If you are playing. A game against them is what they do full time. It, it's frustrating to me because we go through these periods of very, very strong bull. I don't know the exact number, but I know there's a lot of 2024 that's like 2020 where I think it was something like 70 or 80% of stocks.

Made money from the bottom in March, 2020 through the, through the end of the year. And I know it's in the %nt range. I don't know the exact number. This year, it's just been a really good year for almost all [00:38:00] stocks and it gives people false, false, uh, confidence that they know what the hell they're doing in terms of trading.

So the 

Joel Larsgaard: other thing, when you, when you look at what individual traders do so much of the time, we talked about Bitcoin being on fire right now. Think about. uh, Kathy Woods fund arc, right? And, and when did it see the bulk of inflows when it was at the top? Right. So it starts to gain a reputation. It gets a lot of headlines on CNBC.

Kathy Wood becomes low key famous. And then, and then Joe investor on his couch says maybe it's time for me to jump in on this goldmine and they get in at the exact wrong time. And so I think that is a massive problem that individual investors. are likely to fall prey to. And so you have to be really careful and thoughtful about your timeline, about what you're investing in, about why you're investing in it.

You have to have conviction because otherwise you're going to be following trends and, uh, you're going to be, you're going to be late, um, to, to that trend, just like I am when it comes to fashion. 

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Jason Hall: nice. Well played. Yeah, me too. But there's something on there that's really timeless that you said is, is people trying to get in at the perfect time and then try and get out.

You know, fear and greed is so powerful as drivers, um, because they fire. The parts of our brain, the pleasure and pain parts of our brain. And talking about Cathie Wood and of course, ARC has really struck. It's been a pretty good year for it, but overall, right. It's still well down from its highs and that sort of thing.

What happened there with inflows was not unique to ARC. So Peter Lynch, probably the greatest active investment fund manager. [00:41:00] You know, any kind of regular fund that people can invest in since they've existed, incredible, incredible, not just as returns, but as outperformance versus the market. The average investor in the Magellan fund, when he ran it, underperformed the S and P 500, which is stunning considering how much outperformance that fund generated, but it was exactly what you're talking about.

The fund inflows would happen near cyclical peaks. The market would do its thing. The fund would lose value like every fund does when the market turns down and people would head for the Hills, right? Um, humans are so bad at investing. We're so bad at it as, as a behavior. And, and that's why I think Joel, you're spot on.

And the things that you guys talk about. And we try to do the same thing with frameworks to make people think versus rules to tell people what to do is you need to stop and think and then act in your best interest. So one of things I want to talk about briefly that you've done is learn how to use leverage in real estate, because it's one [00:42:00] of the areas where you can actually invest in real estate and use leverage and sure your, your VOO in your 401k or your Roth on a percentage basis might be up a ton over the past 10 years, but you probably made more dollars 

Joel Larsgaard: yeah

Jason Hall: on real estate simply because the size of the deals and using leverage. 

Joel Larsgaard: For sure.

Jason Hall: I'm curious about about real estate and how that fits in and how you think for the average person that maybe has gotten to a point where maybe they have enough wealth that might be thinking about rental properties or something like that. How, how would you think maybe they would think about it 

that leverage is a double edged sword, right?

And so you have to be really careful using leverage. I think that is one of the things that makes real estate returns potentially superior is if you are wisely using leverage. And so I, I hear a lot of people talking about some really, um, riskier strategies of buying real estate. I was always, Uh, and I still am of the opinion that you should be saving up a significant chunk [00:43:00] of the, of the purchase price, the down payment, right?

So 20, 25% down is what I want people typically bring to the table when it comes to a property they're buying. And that means, yes, you are using leverage, but you're not. Overleveraging yourself. And then my goal over time is as the value of the property goes up. And as I pay down the debt, my, you know, my numbers look a lot better and I'm not nervous about if there were to be a market downturn, well, my goodness is, am I going to owe more than the home is worth?

So, yeah, it should be, people be investing in real estate. Well. I'm not actively investing in, in properties right now. And I don't think that means it's not, I'm just kind of, I've got other things going on. And it's also harder to find a deal. So you have to be careful. I think at this point in the market where it is much harder to find a good deal as a real estate investor, the numbers are just much harder to make work.

It doesn't mean that it's not. Possible, but I think you have to be really, you have to be really careful. And you also, again, you have to have a really long ownership timeline because the, the, the worst, the [00:44:00] numbers look, the longer it's going to take for that rental property, I think, to make sense for people.

So yeah, I just, I guess. Like I said earlier, there's so many influencers out there who want to make it sound like tiny down payments, leveraging to the max, you're going to be a real estate all star and it's possible. I mean, when you think about it, if I were to go back and if only put three and a half percent down or 5% down on all those properties, the numbers would look even better, right?

Instead of buying that $250,000 house with $50,000, now I'm buying it with. $12, 500. And so my return, now that it's worth $500,000, let's say it's so much more because I only, I put so much less money into the deal, but the flip side is, you know, you've got a higher monthly mortgage payment is your rent going to cover the mortgage payment and all the money you have to put into the property.

So I just think it's unwise to over leverage yourself. It is one of the things I do that can be helpful about real estate and juicing your returns to a certain extent. But you can also take advantage of that to your [00:45:00] own detriment. It's like rocket 

fuel, right? You can, you can, you can add more rocket fuel and you can go faster and you can go farther.

You can also blow everything up. Sure, 

Jeff Santoro: yes. 

Jason Hall: And that's leverage when it comes to real estate. 

Jeff Santoro: And there's so many, there's so much hindsight. Yeah. Bias in some of those things. Right. Like, so you, you, you here in 2024, Joel can look back at maybe a property you bought 20 years ago or 15 years ago and say, Oh man, the market didn't crash.

I should have put down less, but you know, that that's hindsight. You don't know if it's going to go that way in the future. 

Joel Larsgaard: Oh, if we could all go back in time. I mean, I would have, I would have bought a lot more properties in 2010, 2011. And I would have found a way to get that money, even if it was, you know, high interest debt or something like that, like, because I knew what was coming.

Um, but we just. Don't. And so you have to protect your downside as an investor too. 

Jeff Santoro: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let's pivot to some more fun stuff as we wrap up here. So you guys talk about personal finance and you drink craft beer on your show. So we're going to, we're going to do a Charlie Munger inversion here [00:46:00] again.

If you have to drink cheap macro beer, what's it gonna 

Joel Larsgaard: be? So the only time you'll find me drinking cheap macro beer is at a concert like a music show. So, um, but I will drink PBR or Miller High Life if I'm outsing a favorite band. I 

Jeff Santoro: like that. A lot of High Life in college for me. I think I'd go one of the, I think I'd go Coors Light or Miller Light right now if I had to go cheap macro.

What about you, Jason? We don't talk about cheap macro. Your cheap macro beer of choice?

Coors Light. It's like water. It's true, hop flavored water, hop flavored water. All right. So we're going to do some frugal or cheap with you here, Joel. We're going to throw some scenarios at you. You're going to weigh in if these things are frugal or cheap.

All right. Cause I know this is another, another construct you guys like to do on your show. So my first one is driving out of your way, waiting 30 or 40 minutes to get gas. That is 30 cents per gallon, cheaper at Costco, frugal or cheap. 

Joel Larsgaard: And I love Costco. I love it. I do love Costco, [00:47:00] but no, yeah, it's, I think people overweight the expensive gas in their lives.

The thing that's more expensive is the insurance and the vehicle, the depreciation. Nobody talks about depreciation of the car. Like I bought this $40,000 car and in two years it's going to be worth $25,000. I just lost 15 grand, but you're willing to drive an extra 30 minutes to save like $3 on gas. Like we're majoring on the minors there.

Jeff Santoro: Agreed. All right. Here's the next one. You're out to eat with friends. You, all you had was a salad and some water and everyone else was ordering steaks and beer. If you, don't want to split the check. If you chime in and say like, listen, I'm not splitting this evenly.

That's not fair. Is that frugal or cheap? 

Joel Larsgaard: I think it depends on where you're at in your financial journey. 12 years ago, I would have been so pissed if I was like getting water and really paying attention to my order, then we're trying to split the check. I'd be like, no, no, no, no. I'm trying to do the right thing over here.

At this point in my life, though, I'm not going to speak up and say anything because yeah. It's, it's just a drop in the bucket, fortunately, [00:48:00] because of all the financial progress I've been able to make. So I think it depends. You have to be willing to be able to be honest with your friends. And if it really is an annoyance to you, or you really financially can't afford it, speak up and say something.

And I think your friends will understand. But also, if you are at the point where you can afford it, like, I don't know, think of it as just being able to be generous with your friends. 

Jason Hall: I think about it on a continuum. Jeff, Joel where if it's, if it's with my friends, I'm going to raise hell. I'm absolutely going to not pay for their steaks, but if I'm with people I don't really know very well, especially if I don't like them, I'm going to flex and I'm just going to pay the tab.

Oh, there you go. I'm a horrible person, Joel. If you haven't figured that out yet, 

Joel Larsgaard: I could tell from the first moment I met you. 

Jeff Santoro: Yeah. Well, I actually like both of those answers because I, I always say if I were Insanely wealthy. If I just had more money than I ever needed, that's exactly what I would want to do.

Like not as a flex necessarily, but just like, that's how I'd want to show my [00:49:00] generosity. Like I would take people out to nice or go out to dinner with my friends and just always pay. That would be like the way that I would like to, that's me like being charitable, I guess. 

Jason Hall: Yeah. No, that's, it's funny, I was, I was being tongue in cheek, but actually I do. I love. I love doing that, going out with people and then just randomly, just I'll get it. I'll get it. 

Joel Larsgaard: And less Nvidia stocks down like 20% that day in which you're like, no, no, no. You got to take care of yourself. 

Jason Hall: My Nvidia shares were called away, um, because I was selling weekly calls and I sold them for a lot less than they closed for.

Jeff Santoro: Yeah, so now everyone else has to pay their own tab. 

Jason Hall: That's right. That's right. Yeah. That was a buy your own tab week. 

Jeff Santoro: All right. Here's the last one, Joel, because I actually saw someone do this, so I need your, I need your take. It was a, a work party at, at, uh, someone's house, but it was catered in the backyard. And parties wrapping up.

There's tons of leftover food. And someone asked if they could take a leftover box. 

Joel Larsgaard: Love it. Take the, come on. What are they going to do with it? It's either going to get tossed out. They don't have enough room in their fridge. You know, [00:50:00] you're, you're, you're helping them. So if, if you're saying, Hey, listen, if you've got extras and like. I wouldn't be like, I wouldn't assume that they owe it to you. But if, if you feel like you're helping them out by taking some of their extra food and you're feeding your family for a couple of nights because of it, that's, I think that's a great suggestion. I think that's frugal. All right. 

Jason Hall: Nice. I got two. We'll go with a more obscure one first. Staying, you're on vacation, staying in the friend's rental property that he's letting you stay in for free. That's a half an hour away from the theme park instead of just ponying up for the near. The near resort hotel that's five minutes away.

Joel Larsgaard: Oh, I mean, I'm taking the free place and driving all day, every day. 

Jason Hall: Thank you. 

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. Thank you. It's a lot of money. 

Jeff Santoro: Are you going to send this episode to someone, Jason? 

Jason Hall: A lot of money. 

Joel Larsgaard: Lot dude. Lodging is an incredibly, you're already theme parks have gotten so expensive. Trying to go to Disney is it's like throwing a Molotov cocktail at your wallet, so you might as well get the free lodging. And then, you know, then you can splurge a little [00:51:00] bit on eating at the theme park or something like that.

Jason Hall: See, that's, that's what I said. 

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. Theoretically. We'll come from the same cloth, Jason. 

Jason Hall: Alright, I've got the last one here, Jeff. And this is the, this is the, this is the oldest one. This is the one that everybody talks about. Making coffee at home. 

Joel Larsgaard: Oh, I'm a big fan. I'm drinking coffee at home six days a week.

Actually seven days a week. And if I go out for a coffee, which is typically one day a week it is an additional coffee. Yeah. It's extra coffee. Yeah. 

Jason Hall: Love it. So you're living your best life, Joel. 

Joel Larsgaard: That's right. That's right. But I also think, I think this is actually really key. There's um, I, I, the coffee shop millennial bashing. The avocado toast stuff just really does irk me.

Jason Hall: Me too. 

Joel Larsgaard: But the truth is, I think you enjoy that experience more if you're not doing it every day. And I look like, Monday mornings is when I go out to my favorite coffee shop and I get a flat white, which is my beverage of choice. And I look, I get stoked on Sunday night. Tomorrow morning's coffee day. For a while, I was taking my, my [00:52:00] little man before school one day a week, they had these like little chinos.

And so he would drink his little, his kiddo fake coffee thing. And I would have mine. That wasn't money spent on coffee. That was an experience for us. It's a memory with your kid. Yeah. But if you do it every day, like rote going through the drive thru of your favorite coffee joint to get your $6 fill. That to me, like you're probably missing out on some of the experience and it's becoming this recurring cycle of paying for coffee that's way more expensive than what you would spend at home.

I don't even care if you want to drop like hundreds of dollars on like a dope coffee set up at home. Go for it. And then make it just an occasional splurge so you can actually enjoy it instead of just doing it on repeat, because that's what you do. 

Jason Hall: Think of the shareholders, Joel. 

Jeff Santoro: The way I, the way I think of it is this, like the times I have to get coffee, like I think of it as like when I have to get coffee on the road.

It's usually if I, if I'm rushed in the morning and I don't have time to make it myself. Cause I don't do like the Keurig or anything. I try to like make coffee. It takes time. 

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. 

Jeff Santoro: And if I can't, [00:53:00] to me, it's if I have to buy it on the road, that means I had to get out of the house early. Cause I, maybe I had a meeting or something I had to get to, or, and that's sort of like my gift to myself for like my morning routine being disrupted.

 I'm angry that I got to be out early, but at least I'll get, I'll get to grab some coffee on the run. And that's like a little treat for me in that sense. 

Joel Larsgaard: Yeah. I mean, everyone, you got to treat yourself every now and again. I think you just need to, you just need to set aside the money to be able to do that.

So you're not like, that's what we do too. Cause like, uh, with soccer and stuff like that with the kids, every once in a while, we're like, we have to throw the game plan for making dinner tonight. Ow, like it's gone. We got, what are we going to do? And typically it's 

Jason Hall: right. 

Joel Larsgaard: Chick fil a or our favorite Chinese restaurant or something like that.

And, uh, so we just, you just have to budget for that, knowing that stuff's going to happen. And. And if it doesn't, then like you could bank bank that extra money. But, uh, you know, we just have to be prepared for that kind of stuff for the knowing that those inconveniences are going to happen at some point in time.

Jeff Santoro: Find 

Joel Larsgaard: balance. Yeah. 

Jeff Santoro: All right. So let's wrap it up here, Joel. We've been talking and [00:54:00] referencing, talking about and referencing your podcast throughout the whole episode here, but to end, why don't you why don't you take a, take a moment to tell people where they can find your podcast and where they can go if they want to learn more about what you and Matt are up to.

Joel Larsgaard: Sure. Yeah. The podcast is called How to Money. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts and hopefully it'd be a nice compliment to this podcast in your repertoire because you need specific investing advice, but we try to run the gamut when it comes to kind of personal finance advice in general.

And, um, we release episodes three times a week because we're gluttons for punishment. And, uh, yes, you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Awesome. Well, I 

Jason Hall: will, I will say a couple of things, Joel, I've listened to a few episodes. Jeff has listened to more than I have, but it's, it's a different vibe.

You talk about a lot of different things. I think it would, it's definitely very complimentary and I would suggest all of our listeners, if you haven't at least give it a shot. That is for certain. They're also nice to each other. 

Jeff Santoro: Totally different vibe here. I don't know, Joel, we get, we get feedback from listeners sometimes that they [00:55:00] don't like that we're teasing each other all the time.

We don't listen to them. It's Feedback. Oh, no. We adore those people. 

Joel Larsgaard: You never listen to the listeners because you just, you do what you want to do and they come along for the ride. Um, and yeah, you don't, don't change who you are. Don't change what you do for them. 

Jason Hall: No, it's our vibe. Yeah. It's our vibe. Never change Santoro.

Never change. Joel once again, I'm for me and Jeff, both. Thank you for coming on. Really appreciate it. Love what you guys do. We're definitely all fighting the same good fight to help a lot of people. Money better. No doubt. Thank you for coming on. 

Joel Larsgaard: Thank you for having me 

Jason Hall: as always. Just a reminder, Jeff and I love to answer these hard questions about investing personal finance, money matters, and more have great guests like Joel on to give their answers, but you have to remember these are our answers, your answers, or your answers, and you need to come up with them.

But you know what, as always, after two and a half years of your nonsense, people, I still believe in you. You can do it. All right, Jeff, we'll see you next time. 

Jeff Santoro: See you next time. 

​[00:56:00]